@EU_Commission Percentage of what? I noticed it was difficult just to do laundry in #Denmark because the machines did not accept coins, only online payment. Even though my card was in good standing & the logo was supposedly supported, the card was rejected; couldn’t do laundry. If the net goes down, no one can do laundry, so it seems the more digital, the more fragile that country is.
@expat @EU_Commission what you're saying can be true but doesn't have to. If the whole world only uses google pay as a payment and internet or google servers are down, then yes, very fragile. If the EU developes a good decentralized digital euro, then payments should work even without the internet and the system is not fragile at all.
@mrrulf @EU_Commission In #Denmark you can’t even open a bank account without a CPR number. Being denied a CPR number can be as easy as having one too many people in your house (which is quite likely in areas with housing shortages). Without a CPR number, you can’t even make a photocopy or get a student public transport pass. The Danish tie everything to that number making for a very fragile system.
@EU_Commission @mrrulf Then if you get a Danish bank account, you can lose it simply by not providing info the bank requests fast enough (assuming you even agree to the privacy intrusion). Even making a cash withdrawal at a Danish bank is fragile. Since the digital banks have no vault, a banker must walk to an ATM with you & use a special one-time-use card. Closed bank w/broken ATM card & you are stuffed.
@mrrulf @EU_Commission Digital money is inherently fragile. Cash is robust. I see digital transactions fall apart far more often than I’m mugged. Yet EU govs are looking the other way when a business refuses legal tender in service of a debt (which is illegal under legal tender laws). Stop the #warOnCash.
@EU_Commission @mrrulf Being forced to use a bank also entails ethical consequences that cash does not. JP Morgan Chase in the US invests in fossil fuels & private prisons. And if you open a pension account at a small EU bank (e.g. Argenta) you will find that your investment is outsourced to JP Morgan. It’s likely impossible to bank while avoiding unethical practices.
Did you even understand what I said? You're accusing digitalization as a whole thing of being fragile etc. because one country messed it up. I'm not saying every digital system is great. But you can't say every digital system is bad just for the sake of some being bad. I'm just saying digital systems can be a lot better than what we use now, if done right. Digitalization is progress and we need it, fighting against progress is bad for all of us. We can learn from errors.
@EU_Commission @mrrulf Sure you can make various small improvements to reduce the chance of some of the points of failure, and in the case of offline payment systems eliminate ~2 or 3 out of 25 or so points of failure, but it’s wishful thinking to think you can reach a digital laundromat in the next 20 years that’s as reliable & robust as a 1980’s laundromat.
@mrrulf @EU_Commission I wouldn’t mind people trying so long is they are not experimenting on /me/. Fuck that. I’m not a guinea pig, and there’s no law to protect me from being used as an experimental digitization guinea pig. They should stay in the lab with their laundry machines until they reach a point where they actually have more reliability than what they are replacing.
@EU_Commission @mrrulf Points of failure is only the ½ of it. Every digital system introduces privacy abuses not present in conventional systems. That’s also anti-progress. You can try to use cryptocurrency or whatever to attempt to get the same level of privacy, but then you sacrifice the environment. Sure they can evolve to a proof-of-stake model but that brings in other inequities.
@mrrulf @EU_Commission In the end, experimentation is fine as long as it stays in the lab. Stupid shit that is not ready for prime-time is being deployed in the real world & people are getting burnt (and the people getting burnt are not the same people as those deploying the garbage). And worse, when people get burnt, they’re told by the digitization pushers to fuck off… that their transaction doesn’t matter.
@EU_Commission @mrrulf It’s also flawed to assume that evolution is progress. Consider that email was once reliable, perhaps even more so than snail mail. You could send a msg & as long as your process was RFC compliant the email would be delivered. ~10 years after email became mainstream Google and Microsoft decided to get persnickety about the msgs it accepts.
@mrrulf @EU_Commission After Google & MS started blocking RFC compliant transmissions (e.g. if they are sent directly from a home user), that trend caught on, and now we’ve regressed to where email is less reliable than it was previously, and less reliable than snail mail in fact. People often say “latest & greatest <version/process/etc>” which is a foolish idea to indoctrinate people with.
3. How I already said, yes, your country fucked it up. They made bad decisions changing their money system like that and they'll have to change it again. It would have been better if they'd just thought about it more or let it coexist with cash.
But all of that also does not mean that EVERY POSSIBLE DIGITAL MONEY is worse than cash. Saying that is cherry picking. Like comparing one e-car, cherry picked because it had a crash, to a gas car with 0 miles to call gas safer.
4. "latest (& greatest)" does make sense. Latest versions tend to have most features, being the reason they often are the "greatest" version. However there is a reason stable exists, which is often labeled as recommended.
Yes, when companies introduce new ways to spy on us that's not the greatest feature. But that's why we gotta advocate for solutions that don't spy on us and prevent changes in those directions. Open Source, Decentralidation, stuff like that.
1. Digitalization is progress. Why? More features, more comfort. Of course that are additional variables that can allow more points of failure, if they stay uncontrolled (bad system).
Progress means more possibilities, of course that also includes some bad outcomes. We also use medicine and surgeries, which could end kill us if done wrong.
2. Digitalization doesn't not mean surveillance. It is a possible outcome, if we guide it that way. That's our decision. Consider tor.
@duco @EU_Commission People’s lives depend on power. Occasionally when there is a power outtage in some part of the US that doesn’t often have power outtages, we hear about someone dying because their life support hardware did not have redundancy (or the battery didn’t hold out long enough). I can live w/laundry being delayed under such serious & rare circumstances.
@EU_Commission @duco Digital laundry has 12+ points of failure that can go wrong, in addition to power. When there is a power loss, you have maintenance workers responding to the emergency 24/7 b/c it’s appropriately treated as a serious issue. When my bank card fails to be accepted by the laundry machine’s website, here’s what happens: nothing. The vendor says: “find another laundromat”.
@duco @EU_Commission Part of the reason for that is that it’s easy to marginalize those who are in a minority. But a power outtage affects everyone & the laundromat operator gets zero income. If Bob’s bank card has some strange compatibility issue w/a payment processor in another country, no one gives a shit. It’s not worth the operator’s cost of investigating issues that don’t affect everyone
@EU_Commission @duco The possibility of power loss can only be a shortcoming for digitization. A coin-operated laundromat only goes offline if power is lost at the laundromat. A digital laundromat has the same vulnerability + vulnerabilities to power loss at your home, at your ISP, at the payment processor, at the bank that the payment processor connects to & at the ISPs of the payment processor & bank.
@EU_Commission This article shows us why a digital society is a fragile society: “Flicking the kill switch: governments embrace internet shutdowns as a form of control” https://www.guardian2zotagl6tmjucg3lrhxdk4dw3lhbqnkvvkywawy3oqfoprid.onion/technology/2022/aug/29/flicking-the-kill-switch-governments-embrace-internet-shutdowns-as-a-form-of-control
@haverholm and also @expat @primalmotion : their tweet points to https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_4560 so I suppose the crossposter omits the link because Twitter will remove the trailing link in a tweet and replace it with an embed. @EDPS you should fix it.
@austin @EDPS @primalmotion @haverholm Thanks for the info. The link for #DESI is a Tor hostile site. So I used archive.org to reach it¹, and it’s an EU site. Bit disturbing that the EU tries to exclude Tor using citizens from this information. 1. http://web.archive.org/web/20220803165507/digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/desi
@haverholm @primalmotion @EDPS @austin I’m a bit bothered that they get scores on being digital but the score disregards whether they give a non-digital option. E.g. the #Belgian covid travel form was mandated yet only available online via webform that had required fields for phone number and email address (that is, it demanded information that does not necessarily exist). Yet they would be rewarded with DESI pts.
@haverholm @primalmotion @EDPS @austin This is a problem in #Denmark. The Danish feds block people from accessing their official e-box from Tor, and don’t even tell them why they are blocked (it just looks like an unknown malfunction). Yet Denmark probably got DESI points for pushing a technology that marginalizes people.
@haverholm @EDPS @primalmotion @austin Indeed. Spot on, because “social media” is in fact one of the criteria they used for #DESI. Since #Twitter is /exclusive/ and the #Fedi is not, the Mastodon account should be the primary one they monitor. The Twitter account should be the broadcast write-only-and-ignore-replies account, if any. We need a “zero DESI points for /exclusive/ services” rule. #fuckTwitter
@EU_Commission What does that even mean? And please note that forcing people to have iOS or Android apps with no open alternative is not progress but the exact opposite.
@wuwei @primalmotion @EU_Commission For one it’s disturbing that they do not properly disclose the account being unmonitored (cross-posting does not imply unmonitored) so citizens are led to falsely believe they are writing to their gov. It’s also disturbing that a government is using a 2-way comms channel purely for broadcast. The essence of free speech is being able to talk to your gov & they’ve blocked it.
I really meant to replay to your questions to solve your confusion, I really did. But after deleting 2 messages already that got inturrupted by your repeted replys to the same message I lost every ounce of will to do so, sorry.
The charachter limit is here exactly to make people stop and condense their thoughts. Not to spam replays like this is some group chat.
I legit don't even rember anymore what was the original question.
So sorry again and bye.
@wuwei @EU_Commission @primalmotion Are you talking to me or primalmotion? Not sure what you’re referring to with deleted msgs, etc. I was never confused- just uncertain. Hence why I asked what leads you to say it’s a bot only acct. If you are getting confused about which reply is to which msg I suggest changing clients. The stock web client is bad at showing you the threading. Bitlbee makes the threads more clear
@EU_Commission Last time I had to visit the city hall, I was told that I now can provide all the requested papers as digital scans. Yay?.. But then they added “oh, and of course in addition to your digital copies you have to bring the original papers with you”. 52.9, yeah, sure…
Hey, you're getting some flak for this, but it was truly a humorously nonsensical toot. We all had a good laugh, now just learn from it and never post numbers without context again. :)
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